Becoming a Lawyer: Legal Careers Beyond the Courtroom

0:00:01 – Announcer

You are listening to the National University Podcast.

Kimberly King (00:08.568)

Hello, I’m Kimberly King. Welcome to the National University podcast where we offer an holistic approach to student support, wellbeing, and success: The Whole Human education. We put passion into practice by offering accessible, achievable higher education to lifelong learners. Today we are discussing the state of the legal professions in today’s economy. according to a recent article in Nilead, the legal industry is undergoing a profound transformation driven by rapid technological advancements, shifting client expectations and increasing global competition. And as law firms navigate this evolving landscape, it’s crucial to stay informed about the latest trends, challenges and opportunities. And you’re going to hear a lot more of that on today’s show. On Today’s episode, we’re talking about the different job opportunities for lawyers and joining us is Nicole Mills.

Nicole is currently a full-time faculty member and the academic program director for the JD program at JFK School of Law at National University. She got her bachelor’s degree from Bates College and her JD at Cornell Law School. She began practicing in Washington, D.C. in 1996 and a year later moved to California, where she practiced law as a litigator working for one of the largest law firms in the country.

In 2010, she started teaching conflict resolution and in 2018 started teaching for JFK School of Law, becoming the chair of the legal studies program in 2019, and the associate dean in 2021. She then served as interim dean for the school of law during the merger between NCU and National University. And we welcome you, Nicole, to the podcast. How are you?

Nicole Mills (01:56)

Fine, thanks so much.

Kimberly King (01:58)

Thanks for being here. Why don’t you fill our audience in a little bit about your mission and your work before we get to today’s episode?

Nicole Mills (2:06)

Great. Well, I personally love being a law professor. Being a teacher is something that I always wanted to do, ever since I was a young girl. And I really enjoy being a professor at JFK. One of the great things about JFK is that we are a California accredited law school and that gives us the opportunity to serve a population of students that ABA schools don’t always reach and that is consistent with the mission of National University as a whole. We provide opportunities for people who might not be able- for many reasons- to go to an ABA school. Sometimes it’s location, sometimes it’s tuition, things like that. So I’m really proud to work for JFK.

Kimberly King (2:56):

Excellent. Well, today we’re talking about the different job opportunities for lawyers and such a really great and relevant conversation. And so I guess my first question is, how do you become a lawyer?

Nicole Mills: (3:07)

Great question. Lawyers, a lot of people think that we just go to law school and then we’re lawyers, but we’re not. There’s a lot of steps to it. You do have to go to law school and get your JD unless, of course, you’re Kim Kardashian and you do the law office study program. That’s a very, very small program in California. But you go and you get your JD and then you have to take and pass the bar exam.

You also have to take and pass something called the Multistate Professional Responsibility Exam, and you have to pass a moral character evaluation by the state bar as well. And all of those things are required before somebody can practice law.

Kimberly King: (3:48)

Interesting and thank you for explaining that because not a lot of people realize that. So are you graduated with your JD and then you checked all of the boxes? How does being a lawyer help you and what kind of things can you do?

Nicole Mills: (4:05)

You can do a lot of things once you’re admitted to practice law. And I think that a lot of people think about the lawyers they see on TV and they think about being in court. And that is certainly a large part of what people do with law degrees. You can become a litigator. I did. You can also work- so you can do litigation as a private practice attorney or you can work for the government. You can work in criminal law or civil law. You can not do litigation at all and you can become a corporate attorney.

So there’s a lot of different ways to do it. Many people who want to go into government work and legislature also find that being a lawyer is very, very helpful to them in the skills that they need to go into executive branch or legislative branch positions as well. So there’s a lot of things you can do.

Kimberly King: (4:57)

So can you talk briefly about the difference between litigation and corporate practice?

Nicole Mills (05:01)

Yeah, absolutely. So litigation is the process of litigating a claim through the court system. And so that is, again, a lot of people see things on TV, and they’ll see either private practice or public service, know, government work, and that’s usually criminal justice stuff. And that’s, you know, when you’re going in front of the judge and you’re advocating on behalf of a client, and you’re really doing a lot of the things that people…really associate with lawyers, but corporate work is a little different. Your client isn’t usually a person, it’s a corporation. And so, your job is to represent the corporation as a whole, not any one particular person within the corporation. Frequently these people go in-house, they become general counsels for companies, or sometimes they work for big large law firms and they work for many companies.

And so they’ll, you know, a lot of companies will outsource their general counsel businesses. Or sorry, general counsel needs or general corporate needs. A lot of general counsels will use law firms as well to help with big mergers, acquisitions, deals, things like that. And certainly, small startups frequently outsource that because hiring a full-time attorney is not usually the first thing somebody does when they do a startup. It’s very expensive. So they will outsource that as well. So people who find corporate work, deal work, who think that negotiating specifically is so much fun, that’s a great way to use those skills is to represent corporations.

Kimberly King: (6:36)

Great. It’s really interesting to hear. Yeah, because there is not one kind of law and you might not be great at everything, but if you find your best practices, I think this is a really great conversation. So if you want to be a litigator, what kind of law should you be practicing?

Nicole Mills (06:54)

There are so many different kinds of law for litigation that it’s hard. It’s like its own whole thing all by itself, just litigation. You can be a general civil litigator, which is what I did. I did, and I represented a sort of variety of different clients in that role, but a lot of people will also specialize.

So you have family law attorneys. You have immigration attorneys, you have security defense attorneys, you have IP lawyers, criminal attorneys- whether you’re a prosecutor or a defense attorney, that is a very specialized area as well. And so a lot of times people will specialize in specific areas. Family law is a great example of that because family law, is very specific. A lot of these areas have a lot of laws that are unique to them and different procedures that are unique to them. So criminal defense attorney has different procedures they have to follow than a family law attorney who has different procedures than an immigration attorney. And you really do need to know what those are or you could make really important mistakes on behalf of your client that could negatively impact them. So a lot of people will go into specific areas.

Family law is an area a lot of people have exposure to because it really is kind of the great unifier. It doesn’t really matter what your socioeconomic class is, or where you live, or what you do, everybody really gets touched by family law at some point in their lives. So that’s something a lot of people understand and they realize that that’s a very specific area of law. A lot of times that does end up in court, a lot of times it doesn’t. And there’s a lot of negotiation and mediation that takes place in family law. And then there are areas that cross over. Family law sometimes involves criminal law and sometimes involves estate planning. And so, there are sometimes, especially with people who open up their own practices, there are areas of law that kind of go together that a lot of people will practice. So you’ll see a lot of times somebody who does family law, working with somebody who does estate planning, so that those two practice areas can complement each other.

Kimberly King (9:17)

Interesting. So, that was being the litigator. What about if you want to be a corporate lawyer and what are your options there?

Nicole Mills: (9:30)

Yeah, so again, I think that sometimes you can do a lot of different things. One of the things that we wanted to talk about is how can you use that degree to make change? And a lot of people, they look at social justice, and they look at litigation, and it’s a little more obvious how you can make change with a litigation background. But corporate attorneys are in a position to make a lot of change as well in somewhat different ways.

So, If you’re in-house, you can help set the tone. Usually, the general counsel is on the executive committees and they’re usually an executive level officer. They can help set the tone with regard to the culture inside of a company, making sure that they’re compliant and that they’re treating employees well. You can also make change by deciding who your clients are. So for instance, if you are committed to environmental activism, but you don’t like litigation, you could go and represent green energy companies and help them make the change by supporting the company that’s making the technology that’s doing what you want to do. And that’s always another way. I think it’s a slightly less obvious way. People don’t think about that as a way to make change, but you can make a huge difference by supporting a company that’s committed to green energy or nuclear energy.

Nicole Mills (10:50)

And that’s another big way to support environmental causes, for instance, if that’s a passion that you have, not just going out and being environmental litigator.

Kimberly King: (11:01)

Okay, that’s great advice. And it kind of goes along with my next question is what if you feel called to public service? A lot of what you’re talking about is public service. So what about that? Is there an avenue there?

Nicole Mills: (11:14)

Absolutely. I think that within the corporate realm, public service, I think, takes a slightly different… It looks a little different, sort of like what I talked about. Depends on who you decide to work with. But also, lawyers are in unique position to do what we call pro bono work, which means we’re working for free. And so, a lot of lawyers give away a lot of time, for free to causes that they support. And so a lot of nonprofits utilize lawyers’ pro bono services.

That’s a great way to make change and to support, you know, companies that really need it, I know in the immigration realm, when I was up in Northern California, we worked with company, sorry, nonprofits up there that really support immigrants trying to get, you know, through the system. That’s a great way, you know, today, specifically, there’s a lot going on in immigration.

There’s a lot going on in a lot of areas that people feel called to try to serve. And you can do that in a lot of ways. And one of the ways, if you happen to be an attorney, is to volunteer your time and services for causes that you support. One of the things I did many years ago was, I- during one of the earlier elections in the early 2000s- I served as, I volunteered my time as an election monitor to help to make sure because there was a worry that there was gonna be problems with access to the polls. There didn’t end up being any where I was, but that was one way that I could help to give back and make sure that the democratic process was going the way that it was supposed to.

So it’s a really great honor to be able to do those things, whether you’re doing them for free. As a volunteer or whether you are doing them paid. Like maybe if you’re a general counsel, you’re getting paid, right? You’re still making money, but you could be working for companies that are making change as well.

Kimberly King: (13:16)

So in that regard, what happens if there are mistakes that happen and sometimes they do?

Nicole Mills: (13:22)

Yeah, I mean that’s one of the big roles of the corporate in-house counsel, right? Is to- first of all- to provide the advice so you don’t make a mistake. But when things happen, it’s the in-house counsel that and sometimes with outside counsel as well, law firms that help to you know go in, do an investigation, figure out what happened, figure out how best to solve the problem, how best to deal with any potential ramifications for the problem.

And usually trying to find a solution that will benefit both the company but also ensure that mistakes aren’t made again in the future. Obviously, the best thing to do is get advice prior to doing it and not make the mistake, but everybody does make mistakes. And so that is partly what we do. We help companies when a mistake has been made figure out how to solve that.

Kimberly King (14:15)

Right, gotcha. So, if you’re interested in working with the judicial system, then maybe not in these roles. are there other ways to support the system?

Nicole Mills: (14:24)

Yeah, well, the judicial system is interesting because lawyers compromise a huge part of it, right? We are the people, who are in court. We are the people- judges generally have to be lawyers. So, you’ve got the judges, you’ve got the lawyers, but you also have the judge’s clerks, the court clerks, and you have research attorneys. And those are all on staff in the court and they’re there to help the judges. They do a lot of the research. They help the judges to make decisions.

And they do a lot of the background, they double check the work of the attorneys a lot of the time, to make sure the attorneys are doing their job right. And all of that goes to helping to make sure that the system is running the way that it should. Because every attorney within the system has a really important role to play.

You had asked me about being called to public service and we were talking about corporate work, but also, you know, in the litigations sector, there are- you’ve got public defenders and you have prosecutors who are both called to public service in very different ways, but both of whom play an incredibly important role in the judicial system because, you know, everybody has rights in this country. Everybody does.

And if you’ve been accused of a crime, it’s really important that those rights are upheld in an important way. We need to know that our system is working properly. We need to know that when somebody is convicted of a crime, they had a reasonable defense and that the prosecutors were doing their job so that we have a certain amount of confidence that the people who are convicted are the right people. Not saying that mistakes are never made, but the system as a whole is built such that I think lot of lay people understand the role of the prosecutor, but a lot of people don’t understand why you would ever be a criminal defense attorney or a public defender. And we really do need them because- just because you’ve been accused of a crime doesn’t mean that you committed it. We really do have that concept in this country that everybody is innocent until proven guilty and it’s the job of the prosecution to do that. And it’s important that we make the prosecution do their job properly.

And if they do their job properly, and the defense does their job properly, and the jury or the judge comes through with a decision, then we should have a reasonable amount of confidence that that was the correct decision. And sometimes mistakes do get made. And that’s why we have an entire appellate process in this country to make sure that there’s like a second level of review, to make sure that people who are convicted are the correct people.

And every part of that system plays a role. And so it’s really important that everybody’s rights are upheld all the time, because if they aren’t, then there’s really no way to prove that the person who went to jail was the person who was supposed to go to jail, because we just railroaded them through or we didn’t sit there and we didn’t make sure that the prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt. And that’s the way our whole system was set up. And we have the Constitution that defends that and that grounds those rights in the Constitution.

So, you know, public service at all levels is just really important because without the prosecutors, without the public defenders, and even the private criminal defense attorneys, the whole system, it’s just not as stable. And when the system doesn’t work, that’s not good for anybody in the entire country.

Kimberly King (17:57)

Right, it’s finding that balance and that is, so it works on both sides. So, talk a little bit more about the nonprofit pro bono work. Obviously nonprofit work is a great way to affect change as a lawyer, as you mentioned, but can you talk a little bit more about that?

Nicole Mills (18:15)

Yeah. I think that pro, well, the California bar encourages all attorneys to engage in pro bono work, as do the state bars of pretty much every state. Attorneys as a whole, are always encouraged to give time to these efforts because it’s important, because we do play a very unique role and because everybody can’t do what we do, and not everybody can afford those services.

So it’s really important that you have that. At JFK, we have an internship requirement for our students, and the required internship is a public interest internship. So all of our students are required to give 60 hours of internship time during their studies in a public interest-facing internship. So for instance, we’ve worked with some domestic violence restraining order clinics up in both Northern California and Southern California.

And every student that I’ve worked with through these internships has been changed by these internships. Some people choose to do these particular internships because they really wanted to get into family law. I’ve had students tell me, this is my story too, and I wanted to give back, that’s why I went to law school. and I’m like, great. And they obviously found that to be moving in one way, one very specific and very personal way.

But I’ve had students who had no personal connection to that part of the system at all, who did it because it’s a requirement, let’s face it, right? Because you have to get it to graduate, went in and were changed. I had one student tell me that they were planning on continuing to work with that particular organization as long as they were an attorney because the need was so great and they felt so- it felt so meaningful for them to be able to help people.

And I’ve had some students tell me that they were, they went into those internships with no intention of practicing family law at all. And they came out of them changing their minds about what kind of law they wanted to practice. So they went into family law and were very lucky to have that partnership in Northern California with an organization that actually even has an incubator program to help people get their family law practices started in exchange with mentoring and help in exchange for taking on some of these reduced fee clients, pro bono clients, to help reduce the strain on the system for people.

So, you know, I think these, whenever you learn to give back to the system, whenever you realize, and I think this is what’s so important about that particular internship requirement in law school, is you start to get a feeling for exactly what a privileged position you’re about to have, and really what an obligation it is to give back to the system. Right now, nonprofits are in a very precarious position. There’s a lot of funding that’s being pulled away from them. They cannot afford to pay people to do things. So giving back as a pro bono activity is just so much more important and meaningful than it really has been in so long. And so again, you know, there are ways to do it that- immigration is a huge area in which lawyers are giving back and so is family law. Those are two very obvious areas right now where people are giving back. But particularly right now with the decrease in funding from the federal government to most nonprofits, every nonprofit right now is just struggling. And so… Any help they can get is just so greatly appreciated.

Kimberly King (22:05)

Yeah, and you kind of mentioned it earlier too about how we’ll all probably be touched by family law down the line if we haven’t already been. But we talked earlier about government work within the judicial branch and then what about government work within the legislative or executive branches? I don’t know if you’ve really touched on that.

Nicole Mills (22:23)

No, I haven’t yet. Actually, I think that’s one of the areas where it’s so obvious how a lawyer can make change, right? If you look at the makeup of, for instance, the US Congress is probably 50% lawyers, and you look at the California legislature, it’s similar, right? Lawyers are probably the most represented occupation in the legislative and executive branches across the country.

And there’s a reason for that. It’s because what they do is make laws and who knows about laws better than lawyers, right? We understand them. We understand why they get drafted the way they’re drafted. We understand how to craft them. And we understand how to think about how they might be enforced as well, right? Because lawyers are the ones who are typically working on those lines as well. And so being a lawyer is incredibly helpful if you’re somebody who has an idea of getting into some kind of politics, public service in that way.

And the other thing that I think going to law school really does to help with that is- people hear this all the time- you go to law school, and you learn how to think like a lawyer. And what that really means is you learn how to really dissect a problem in a very logical way. You learn how to, what is relevant, what is not relevant. What is the rule? How do I apply the facts of this particular situation to this rule? And what we do when we’re talking about, you know, creating legislature or drafting documents or anything like that, is we try to think about, okay, if this is what I’m writing, what are the situations that could come up that could create problems here so I can draft this appropriately to avoid those problems?

And those are all skills we teach in law school, and also that you learn in practice as well. So I think that anybody, again, right now, times are a little crazy, and a lot of people are feeling called to action, for whatever reason. And one of the ways, you look at politicians and you realize how much power they have. And so, a lot of people are being called to the idea that they might want to go into politics one day. They might want to try to make change very directly that way.

And being a lawyer can be incredibly helpful to that goal. It really does give you the skills and then, and it also gives you the background that you need to be able to do it. A lot of times, if you watch like congressional hearings, the lawyers sitting there basically doing direct examination on the witnesses that are in front of them. And you really kind of need to know how to do that.

Kimberly King (25:06)

Right, right. So state or federal legislator, you’re not required to be an attorney, which I think that’s interesting. But why is this important and how does it help to be an attorney? It’s really kind of what you were just talking about.

Nicole Mills (25:19)

Yeah, yeah, I think it helps with some of the skills like drafting. I think it helps with questioning witnesses. I think it helps with, especially when you look at some of the hearings, you know, and they have to go through mountains and mountains of evidence. You know, all of those, those hearings are basically like court cases. And, you know, so it’s just incredibly helpful to have all of that background and skill in questioning people and doing direct examination and identifying the most relevant portions of documents, things like that.

Kimberly King: (25:54)

And it’s interesting off the subject here for a moment, but I feel like it’s speech and debate. So like a very general thing that I don’t know that it’s always taught the way that it used to be. When I was in speech and debate, and it was before cell phones. So we’d walk into the class and the teacher would say, okay, here’s your subject matter. So we couldn’t really look up on Google or anything. You had to have the knowledge- we had maybe 10 minutes. But halfway through, she would flip the side you were arguing against. And I think that’s missing for critical thinking. What do you think about those skills today for being an attorney?

Nicole Mills: (26:30)

Well, you’re talking my language, first of all. I was a huge debate geek in high school. [Laughter.] I totally get where you’re coming from. And I think that a lot of people, they don’t, first of all, develop those skills of speaking in public. Critical thinking skills are decreasing. That’s my personal opinion. I’m a little sad to see how many people don’t understand how to do critical thinking and how many people are handing that skill over to AI and having, and Google generally. I’m not a huge fan of doing that. I think AI can be a great tool if you already know what you’re doing, but it’s a terrible tool if you don’t, because you allow it to you shortcut all of that work that is the stuff that makes your opinion informed.

And so, you don’t if you don’t know what you’re doing and you do not have the background to critically assess the- you know, whatever search engine result comes up, we are just assuming that they’re right. We know for a fact it’s not always right. We’ve seen, and we’ve even seen this in the legal profession, which is just terrible to me, but people relying on AI for case citations and things like that. And I think that while AI is a very powerful tool, short-changing your critical thinking skills is a terrible, terrible idea. And I think that…

On a national level, we have a tendency right now to do very black and white thinking. And the concept of critical thinking is becoming less and less and less used in the national discourse. And it really needs to be used because the concepts of nuance, the concepts of critical thinking, the concept of being able to question something that’s given to you and not have it be seen as an attack, and also the ability for somebody to defend their position which does require you to understand the other side, what the other side might say. Those are all incredibly important skills. I think they’re becoming more and more important and unfortunately, I think we are doing it less and less.

Kimberly King: (28:35)

Yeah, I agree with you. I absolutely do. What if you wanted to help create legislation that reflects on their understanding of the law and the legal system, but you don’t want to be a politician?

Nicole Mills: (28:47)

Well, there are other ways. mean, the legislature, the executive branches, there are lawyers at every level. Not everybody wants to be a politician and I don’t blame them, especially in the- hard job. There are huge staffs of people that support them. So, you know, people who don’t necessarily always want to be in the public eye, they don’t want to be the face of it, but they want to support it. Just like judges have clerks and legal research attorneys, legislators have full staffs and a lot of those people are also attorneys. There are whole organizations within the state government. I think in California, we have the Office of Legal Counsel, I think it’s called, that helps all the legislatures in California to do research. They give advice about rules. They’ll give opinions about the constitutionality of proposed rules, things like that. So there’s great ways to serve within the government without having to be an actual politician, which a lot of people don’t really want to do.

Kimberly King: (29:50)

Yeah, right, it is, it’s tougher and tougher these days. So finally, now let’s talk about academia and how being an attorney can help make a change in academia.

Nicole Mills: (30:00)

Yeah. you know, we have, I mean, obviously there’s the easy one, right? Law professor. And, you know, I get the privilege of educating the next generation of lawyers, which I think is just amazing. My students are fantastic and I just love working with them. But there are other areas in the law. We also have a paralegal program. Paralegals are incredibly important parts of the legal system. Most lawyers, you know, rely on- if you get a good paralegal, my gosh, you keep them with you for your entire career if you can. There’s nothing like a really good paralegal. And so, you know, we can educate the paralegals, we can educate the lawyers.

And then, you know, at a sort of university-wide level, there are general counsel, which are like corporate attorneys, but for higher education. And they help to make sure that the schools are being independent, that they’re following the rules, they’re protecting both… the people who work at the school and the people who go to the school to make sure that the students are getting the education that they deserve, that we’re following all of the rules and complying with the regulations that are set out for us. You know, right now they have their work cut out for them because, you know, the landscape of higher ed and student debt and student lending is changing like as fast as you can turn your head. So those people are all really, really busy.

But, you know, again, we need everybody in the system in order to make the system work. So

some people who enjoy having corporations as clients, but maybe want to serve and promote academia. That’s a- a university general counsel’s office is a great place to go.

Kimberly King (31:40)

And that’s interesting as well. Are there opportunities to make change in academia if you’re just, if you’re not interested in teaching? I know you kind of talked a little bit about that as well, especially.

Nicole Mills: (31:51)

Yeah, I do think, I think like a general counsel’s office compliance and regulation, you know, there’s always like departments that are geared, sometimes they’re part of the university council and sometimes they’re separate, you know, regulation and compliance people, things like that. It sounds not, it doesn’t sound super exciting, but it’s just really, really important because those are the rules that protect the students and those are the rules that protect the teachers and those are the rules that protect the university because if you don’t protect the university, there’s nothing there to teach anybody. You know, they really do serve an incredibly important role. Like I said, not everybody wants to be a politician, not everybody wants to be a teacher, not everybody wants to be in front of the class or in front of the legislature or in front of the judge. And so, there are plenty of opportunities for people who like to maybe particularly a little bit more introverted people who don’t really want to be the face of whatever they’ve chosen. Lawyers have so many opportunities to serve and support in all of those roles.

Kimberly King (32:53)

I think what you just said is a really key element. My son is a police officer. He’s with people all the time. My daughter is a little bit more reserved, so she’s an intel analyst. There’s a difference that you can fall into in any career, but it is important to say that if you are an attorney, that doesn’t mean you necessarily have to be up in front litigating. I like that you really talked about the difference.

Nicole Mills: (33:19)

Yeah, think you’re right. I think it’s important to remember that because a lot of people who don’t necessarily have attorneys in their families, their exposure to it is TV, really. Yes. Right. But those lawyers are always the big, brash, in-your-face kind of people who enjoy arguing and not necessarily always the quieter people in the background supporting that person because that’s not great TV. But they are there and they’re all and everybody is important.

Kimberly King: (33:51)

Right, exactly. think I know. TV has done no favors, I think, to a lot of careers because what you see on there isn’t always the way it is. But I do appreciate you spending the time with us today. My last question to you is, how can getting your JD at JFK School of Law and National University help you achieve your goal of making a difference in your community and helping people do this specifically?

Nicole Mills : (34:14)

Thanks. I think we actually provide people with a really great opportunity. A lot of people don’t know the difference between a California accredited school and an ABA accredited school. an ABA accredited school is accredited by the American Bar Association and anybody who graduates from an ABA school can take the bar in any state.

A California accredited school is accredited by the California Committee of Bar Examiners and you are qualified to sit for the California Bar. And the… what that does, what we do, because we are serving a different community within California, we are here to serve a population of people that doesn’t always have the opportunity to go to the ABA schools. And there’s a lot of reasons why people choose not to.

One of them, which is relevant to this, is cost. So ABA schools are incredibly expensive, California accredited schools as a whole are a much more affordable option for people. And right now, the current budget bill that was recently passed, I believe caps graduate student loans for law school at about $200,000. I think most grad loans are capped at $100,000. That is not enough to go to a lot of the ABA schools, most of the ABA schools, once you pay for tuition and books and cost of living.

When, you know, at a California acredited school and specifically at our school, our all-in tuition rate is about just over $68,000. And that is about the same as most schools are charging- most ABA schools are charging0 for one year of tuition. And that’s tuition only. It doesn’t include books. It doesn’t include cost of living. And we have that as our all-in tuition. It includes books. It includes your bar review class. And because we are online, you do not need to relocate. You can stay in your home. We have night classes so people can continue to work and defray costs that way. So, you know, they don’t even need to take out full student loans for the entire amount.

And the beauty of all that, and the reason I say that is because that gives you opportunities to make change in two different and in very important ways. One of them, is the less student debt you have, the more opportunities and the more choices you have, period. That is true no matter what kind of educational debt you take on, we all know that that’s true.

So if you’re somebody who really wants to get into public service, particularly government service, they don’t pay as much as private practice. And so, it’s important consideration how much money you spend getting your degree so that you have the ability to make the choices that are driving you to go to law school in the first place.

The other way I think that it helps is that when we first applied to go online with the California Committee of Bar Examiners many years ago in about 2019, I think we did our application, one of the things that we talked about was attorney deserts. So in California, we have all these attorney deserts where there are no attorneys at all for like 100 to 300 mile radiuses, huge swaths of California where people don’t have any representation at all.

And one of the things that we thought was if people could stay where they are in these communities, if they didn’t have to leave, they would be much more likely to stay and serve their communities for a couple of reasons. One, because you didn’t just leave and uproot your whole life. Two, because you didn’t just take on massive amounts of debt that now require you to go live in a big city and get a big city law firm salary to pay back. And we’re starting to see that. I have a specific student right now that- she lives in a mountain town. There’s nobody in her town that practices in family law. She wants to open up a family law practice. We were able to get her an internship with a family law practitioner via Zoom, so she got to stay at home. She got to keep living in her community. She got to keep her job.

And she now has a plan to graduate and continue to serve her community and be a resource for other people that just that doesn’t even exist anymore. And that’s another way that you can make huge change just by being an attorney. If you’re there in a community that doesn’t have any representation at all, your existence makes a change. And it’s really hard to do that if you just got yourself into $300,000 worth of debt. So, you know, or if you had to leave and move and uproot your family and, you know, that kind of thing. The idea… that we had and we are seeing this in fruition, is if you can stay in your community, you’re more likely to stay in your community after you graduate, serve that community, and make change that way as well.

Kimberly King (39:13)

Good, and boy, what a difference you’re right when we were able to do things virtually. a gift. I said this to the last guest, I think, too, is that National University certainly was ahead of the curve before COVID when everybody flipped to virtual. So, well, we really appreciate you joining us today. And if you want more information, you can visit National University’s website, which is nu.edu. And thanks again for your time today.

Nicole Mills (39:42)

Thank you, it was lovely to talk to you. Thank you.

Kimberly King (39:43)

You as well. Thank you.

You’ve been listening to the National University Podcast. For updates on future or past guests, visit us at nu.edu. You can also follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.