0:00:01 – Announcer

You are listening to the National University Podcast.

0:00:09 – Kimberly King

Hello, I’m Kimberly King. Welcome to the National University Podcast, where we offer an holistic approach to student support, well-being and success: the Whole Human education. We put passion into practice by offering accessible, achievable higher education to lifelong learners. Today we’re talking about the differences between computer science versus computer engineering versus cybersecurity bachelor’s degrees. According to a recent article in Forbes magazine, computer science and computer engineering degrees vary in significant ways. Computer science students learn to use technology as a tool for analysis and development, while computer engineering students explore ways to design and build technology through hands-on experiences both in and out of the classroom. Given the ever-growing need for digital security and automation in today’s world, concentrations in cybersecurity and artificial intelligence, they’re also very popular among students pursuing bachelor’s degrees in computer engineering. Stay with us. So much to talk about on today’s show.

On today’s episode, we’re talking about the differences between computer science versus computer science, versus computer engineering versus cybersecurity bachelor’s degrees, and joining us is Bill Reid. Bill is the academic program director for National University’s BS in Cybersecurity program. Prior to entering academia, Bill served in the US Navy for just a short 25 years. Thank you for your service. During that career, he received his master’s degree in computer science from the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey. After retirement in 1999, Bill continued to support the military as a government contractor and obtained a second master’s degree, this one in information technology management. Bill left the industry in February of 2012 and began his third career, adult education within six months. Bill was teaching at Coleman University, National University and Phoenix University. He started with National University in 2018.

And also joining us is Dr. Peilin Fu. Dr. Fu is a professor with the Department of Engineering, data and Computer Science College of Business, engineering and Technology at National University. She’s received a PhD in Systems Engineering and Engineering Management and a Master’s in Electrical Engineering. She joined National University in 2008 as an assistant professor, where she became an associate professor in 2013 and a professor in 2018. She is the academic program director of the Bachelor of Science in Electrical and Computer Engineering program and, prior to joining National University, she was a lecturer in the Department of Electrical Engineering University of California Riverside from 2004 to 2008, and a research associate in the Department of Electrical and Electronic Engineering at Hong Kong University of Science and Technology from 2003 to 2004.

Dr. Fu has published scientific publications in the areas of systems and control and engineering education, including publications in the IEEE Transactions on Automatic Control, Siam Journals on Control and Optimization, Automatica, etc. Dr. Fu is an invited reviewer for numerous journals and conferences in the field. She also served as an international program committee member and an organizer of international conferences and workshops. Wow, really impressive. Welcome both of you to the podcast. How are you?

0:03:56 – Bill Reid

I’m good.

0:03:57 – Doctor Peilin Fu

I’m doing great, thank you.

0:03:59 – Kimberly King

Good, why don’t you fill our audience a little bit on your mission and your work before we get to today’s topic? And I realize there are two of you here, so whoever wants to go first and then jump on, that’s great.

0:04:11 – Bill Reid

Ladies first.

0:04:13 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Thank you, Bill. Hi everyone, this is Peilin Fu. It’s a great honor to join today’s podcast. I’m a professor at National University and I’m leading the Bachelor of Science in Electrical and Computer Engineering program, and teaching is always my passion. So as the program lead I, besides my teaching responsibilities, I also staff courses, answer any questions the students and advisors might have, and also, I develop the courses and the curriculum and prepare for accreditations. Yeah, it’s a great joy to work in National University and help our students grow. Thank you.

0:05:02 – Bill Reid

And I’m Bill Reid and, as Kimberly said, I’m the program director for the BS in cyber here at National University. Why am I here? I love teaching. My first teaching gig was in the military back in the 80s and once I did that, I knew that once I retired from however many other careers I would have, my last career would be teaching. So I love it. I’m here for the students and computing has always been my hobby, as you can see by my degrees, et cetera. I love teaching and this is my hobby anyway, is computing. So I don’t work.

0:05:38 – Kimberly King

Yeah right, the best of both worlds, and you’re passionate, it’s coming through. I love that. Today we’re talking about the differences between computer science versus computer engineering versus cybersecurity bachelor’s degrees, and I love that we’re talking about this. This isn’t something that comes naturally to me, and you’re educating all of us, so tell me a little bit. I’m going to start with you, Bill. What will the student learn in this program?

0:06:05 – Bill Reid

So you know, cyber is a new field as far as colleges and universities are concerned. It really didn’t start really flourishing until this last decade. So when students come into our program -and you’ll see a lot of schools have a BA in cybersecurity- ours is a BA. So we really get down to the full nitty gritty of the technology. You know what’s happening inside that wire that connects your computer to a switch or a router and then goes out on across the Internet. We discuss everything that happens in those wires. Because, again, you have to know. You know, and I tell students and everybody says the same thing, in order to understand and protect your environment from hackers, you basically have to know how to hack, which means you have to know all of the nitty gritty of what’s going on inside that computer and inside the network.

0:07:00 – Kimberly King

I think you both have job security in that regard, because it feels like the hackers are everywhere, aren’t they? And just as we started this podcast, I got three potential spam calls and I’m so over it. So if you have any tips for that but I know it’s crazy. Dr. Fu- did you want to add anything about what the student will learn in this program?

0:07:21 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Oh yeah, sure, the program we are leading- I’m leading is the electrical and computer engineering, right. So the student will basically learn both the hardware and software and they will use what they have learned to design some computer systems, right?

0:07:39 – Kimberly King

Yeah, excellent. So how long is this program? Either one of you can jump in.

0:07:47 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Yeah, the whole program, including the prerequisite courses, general education courses and major courses that will last about four years.

0:07:58 – Kimberly King

Wow, okay, that’s great. And again, just to confirm, it’s a BS, not a BA, correct?

0:08:04 – Doctor Peilin Fu

It is a Bachelor of Science. Yes.

0:08:05 – Kimberly King

Bill what makes National University’s Cybersecurity program different?

0:08:14 – Bill Reid

Oh, because we’re the best in San Diego.

0:08:17 – Kimberly King

I love it.

0:08:19 – Bill Reid

And why I say that is, you know, for two reasons. Number one, we are, as a university, we’re certified through NSA and DHS as a center of academic excellence in cybersecurity, and National University was the first four-year university to get that certification, and it started out with a master’s. And so also, we are the only college university in San Diego that has both a master’s program that has that certification and a bachelor’s program.

0:09:00 – Kimberly King

That’s terrific. I feel like National University is always on the map ahead of the game, kind of the pioneer. So good, that’s excellent. So what type of student should enroll in this program?

0:09:12 – Bill Reid

You know and that goes for both Peilin’s you know computer science and cybersecurity. You have to get number one, you know, be willing to be frustrated because you will have those problems that are unique all the time, and so you just have to be willing to say that- See, that’s why I have no hair, I pull all my hair out. You have to be willing to sit there, pull your hair out and then get up and walk away and then come back. All right. So you really have to have that mindset. You know, that logical mindset where you could figure out the problem and then decide a path on correcting that problem, and then know where to look. You know where to look for other resources, because they are all going to be unique.

0:09:56 – Kimberly King

Right. Did you want to add anything, Dr. Fu?

0:09:59 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Yeah, I agree. I think a majority of the National University students are working professionals, so you’ve got to be prepared that if you want to go to school at the same time, you need to spend a lot of time during the evenings and weekends studying, yeah.

0:10:15 – Kimberly King

So being able to do that work-life balance right?

0:10:21 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Yes, it’s very important.

0:10:23 – Bill Reid

And I do want to add to that just a little bit, because you know, like my first master’s was in computer science and that helped me out tremendously in Cybersecurity. So if you know, if people are interested, that is actually. That is the best of both worlds is to have both of those you know credentials under your belt.

0:10:42 – Kimberly King

I can imagine as an employer and you have those, you can check the box on both of those and even, yeah, adding the cybersecurity portion of it. But just really, it is interesting to really hear the different arenas and I would imagine you are so much more marketable with all three of those. It’s a trifecta. What type of skills or knowledge should the students already have?

0:11:07 – Bill Reid

So you know they should be a problem solver, and they should have critical thinking. More often than not you’re going to be working in teams, so you need to have that ability to work, you know, in a group to figure out a certain detail or problem and then doing things like you know, new updates to your environment, for security environments, and then be able to work on those. You know security teams, those incident response teams.

0:11:38 – Kimberly King

What type are, what are the jobs and the types of jobs the graduates can potentially apply for?

0:11:45 – Bill Reid

Yeah, we have a lot of students will end up being in what we call the security operations centers, you know, because basically they have, unless they have had or they’re working in a field already, they have very little experience, so those kinds of positions help them get their feet wet working in security operations centers. Some of them, if they’re really good, they can be security analysts. If they decide to take our path in forensics or whatever, they can be forensics technicians, you know, they wouldn’t necessarily lead a forensic shop, but they could start out with that under their belt. So a lot of junior positions, but you know, the more they work, the more they stay up with the field, the faster they can move up the ladder.

0:12:32 – Kimberly King

It’s so interesting. So I’m hearing maybe law enforcement, military, obviously, roles for the students that are just graduating that again, job security is out there. My daughter is an intelligence analyst with the FBI Fusion Center and her background was criminal justice. But as I’m listening to you, I’m like, oh man, maybe go back and get your master’s in this, but it would make her so much more marketable.

0:12:57 – Bill Reid

Yeah, and you know, obviously cyber is everywhere.

0:13:01 – Kimberly King

Yeah, it is.

0:13:02 – Bill Reid

It’s ubiquitous, yeah.

0:13:03 – Kimberly King

Yeah. Dr. Fu. What is the main difference between computer science and computer engineering? I can’t wait to hear your answer on this, because we kind of clumped them together.

0:13:16 – Doctor Peilin Fu

That’s a great question. Yeah, computer science mainly focuses more on software, algorithm, theory, and data, and computer engineering, on the other hand, bridges electrical engineering and computer science together and it deals with designing software, hardware, and embedded systems and in addition to understanding software and you can think of computer science as a more abstract and logic-driven, while computer engineering brings the logic into the physical world through hardware.

0:13:52 – Kimberly King

Hmm. Okay. So which kind of program should a student choose? I don’t know if that’s like a left brain, right brain, or what kind of student.

0:14:03 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Well, it really depends on the student’s interest and the career goals. If someone loves coding, software development or cybersecurity, artificial intelligence, then computer science might be a better fit. If they are curious about how processors work, want to build the embedded system or design software, then computer engineering would be more suitable for the students. The good news is both fields are highly in demand and have overlapping skill sets.

0:14:38 – Kimberly King

Wow, yeah, and I would imagine- it is interesting. My neighbor is next door. They’re all in junior high and high school, but they are the number one robotics team in the nation, actually, I think they’re just won a global, you know, conference. It’s so great to see these young minds at work, and they’re constantly working on the science part. I think the dad works for Qualcomm, so they have firsthand experience and it’s amazing to see these kids flourish. So is there a lot of overlap between both of these fields?

0:15:23 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Definitely. Both programs actually share foundational topics like programming, data structure, computer architecture. As students progress, computer science moves more towards software and theory, and while computer engineering dives deeper in electronics, digital systems and hardware-software integrating and there are growing convergence, especially with topics like robotics, internet of Things and edge computing.

0:15:51 – Kimberly King

Okay, so talk to me a little bit about a typical career path for each.

0:15:57 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Sure, and the computer science graduate could be a software developer, data scientist, machine learning or artificial intelligence engineer, cybersecurity analyst, back-end or front-end developer. Well, the graduates from computer engineering program can pursue careers such as an embedded system engineer, firmware developer, hardware design engineer, robotics engineer, systems architect. But, with that being said, the roles in the tech areas are fluid. So a computer engineering graduate might work as a software engineer and a computer science graduate might go to the systems design.

0:16:50 – Kimberly King

You know, do either of you reach back out to some of your former students to have and speak to your now class and just really kind of breathe in the real life experiences?

0:17:00 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we always contact our students. Some of the alumni, they serve as our advisory board member. Yeah, yeah, they always share their experiences after graduation and many of them work in big companies and they are passionate about- to apply what they have learned in the real system design and solve real world problems.

0:17:28 – Kimberly King

I imagine it’s such a fast growing- you know, you always have to stay up on it. As I said, it’s so relevant in today’s world. (Yes, yes.) Tell us a little bit about the program that you are leading Dr. Fu. And then what makes it so unique?

0:17:45 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Yeah, sure, so, as I mentioned earlier, the program I’m leading is electrical and computer engineering at National University, right. So what sets us apart is our strong emphasis on the interdisciplinary education. We have designed our curriculum to give students hands-on experience with both hardware and software, and we integrate the real-world project to prepare the students for emerging technologies. And our program is ABET accredited and it is offered 100% online as well as in a hybrid format in San Diego. So that means the student takes some part of the courses online. They also meet with our instructors onsite in our San Diego campus.

0:18:38 – Kimberly King

Kind of allowing the best of both worlds. (Yeah, yeah.) For their career, you know, as they’re doing it all. So what does ABET accreditation mean, and did I say that correctly, and what and why is that- Okay? What is that and why is that important for engineering programs?

0:18:55 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Yeah, ABET accreditation is very important for engineering programs. And ABET is a very rigorous, peer-reviewed process and that can ensure an academic program meets the quality standards essential to prepare graduates to enter the global workforce in the tech field. So for engineering programs being ABET accredited signals to students, employers and graduate schools that the curriculum meets the high standard in area like faculty qualifications, facilities, curriculum, continuous improvement, and student outcomes. Right. So for the students, it’s very important. Many of them would like to, for example, pursue graduate studies or they want to develop a career in this engineering field. So many occasions you can find they require a student graduate from the ABET accredited program, right. So, this will also give employers confidence that the graduates are ready, industry ready. So it is very important for our students. And also, some exams like the PE, the professional engineer qualification, right. So when it is, ABET accreditation is required for license as a PE. So it is very important.

0:20:38 – Kimberly King

And you know you did say it’s peer-reviewed, and that kind of really just puts everything on a different level.

0:20:43 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Yeah, it is very long like I think it’s a one-and-a-half-year process to receive the ABET accreditation. So, you will need to get- if it’s the first time, then you need to submit a readiness review and then, if it is approved, and then you will need to provide a self-study and they will send a review team to review on-site. It’s a two-day event actually. They will talk to the school administration, talk to the faculty program director, talk to students, as well as our advisory board. So it is a very long, rigorous process to receive ABET accreditation and we are one of the- actually, we are the only 100 percent online ABET accredited electrical and computer engineering across the nation.

0:21:43 – Kimberly King

Excellent. Another check in that box there for National University. That’s terrific. You know what, we hear so much about artificial intelligence these days, and can you both weigh in on how AI is going to shape the future in your fields?

0:22:04 – Bill Reid

Well, right now, a lot of the AI use is being applied at what we call information and event management systems, where machine learning is being used to understand what’s going on in your network and to be able to assist you in pinpointing any problems that are out there. As has been demonstrated over years, most companies don’t even know they’re breached until that attacker has been sitting in there for months or what have you. So these systems will assist us in finding those attacks a lot faster.

0:22:43 – Kimberly King

That’s great. Dr. Fu, did you want to add anything on there?

0:22:48 – Doctor Peilin Fu

Yeah sure, the artificial intelligence in electrical and computer engineering right now is transforming how engineers design, manage, and maintain the electrical systems. So it enables features like predictive maintenance, optimized energy consumption, and intelligent control system, leading to more efficient and reliable power grids and other electrical infrastructure. Right, so it is a booming area. I think you will see a lot of great things coming up.

0:23:29 – Kimberly King

Well, I love what you are both doing. Thank you, and thank you for really reaching into the next generation and just all the students at National University. You’ve- you know. I can see that you’re ahead of the game and you’re bringing that to NU. We appreciate you joining us and if you want any more information, you can visit National University’s website. It is nu.edu. And again, thank you so much, both of you, for your time today.

0:24:01 – Bill Reid and Doctor Peilin Fu

Thank you.

0:24:03 – Kimberly King

You’ve been listening to the National University Podcast. For updates on future or past guests, visit us at nu.edu. You can also follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.