0:00:01 – Announcer

You are listening to the National University Podcast.

0:00:09 – Kimberly King

Hello, I’m Kimberly King. Welcome to the National University Podcast, where we offer an holistic approach to student support, well-being and success: the Whole Human education. We put passion into practice by offering accessible, achievable higher education to lifelong learners.

On today’s episode, we’re discussing getting into higher education from other educational backgrounds. And before we get to today’s podcast, according to a recent article in Inside Higher Education, colleges and universities, particularly public institutions, are facing growing pressure from lawmakers, students and their families to improve postgraduate outcomes, demonstrating a return on investment in students’ college experiences. While the long-term benefits of a college education remain clear, helping those students land higher-paying jobs to see more direct correlation between their education and their careers has risen as a priority for many institutions.

We have so much to discuss on today’s episode, again, transitioning into higher education. Stay with us. We have a lot to talk about. On today’s episode, we’re discussing getting into higher education from other educational backgrounds and joining us is Dr. Joseph Marron.

Dr. Marron is the founding professor and program director for the Higher Education Administration Graduate Program here at National University. He also serves as a professor in the Organizational Innovation Doctoral Program and chair of the university’s institutional review board for research. Dr. Marron received his doctorate in higher education administration at Vanderbilt University and his post-doctoral work was completed at Harvard University. He previously served as vice president for student services and enrollment management at a number of public and private colleges and universities for more than two decades.

Dr. Marron has chaired over 40 doctoral dissertation committees in the areas of higher education administration, educational leadership and organizational innovation, and his own research focuses on higher education law leadership, professional development models and higher education standards and professional competencies. Professional development models and higher education standards and professional competencies. He is the author of 30 peer-reviewed publications and has presented over 200 juried academic papers presentations and has held numerous leadership positions in a number of higher education professional associations. Wow, this is impressive. We welcome you to the podcast. Thank you for being here, Doctor Marron. How are you?

0:02:45 – Doctor Joseph Marron

I’m good. Thank you so much, and thank you so much for having me.

0:02:48 – Kimberly King

Absolutely. This is again, quite impressive. I’m excited to discuss today with you higher education. But before we get to that, why don’t we fill our audience a little bit in on your mission and your work before we get to today’s show?

0:03:01 – Doctor Joseph Marron

Well, the mission right now is kind of in two areas. I oversee the Higher Ed program in the master’s program in higher education at the university and also, I’m involved with the doctoral program in organizational innovation. So, what we’re trying to do there is prepare college administrators, university administrators within the higher ed program- we say we want people to be able to stand as a leader in higher education, and that’s what we think the curriculum does and we’ve had our graduates go on to some good success in numerous colleges and universities around the country.

Also, for the EDD, we want to transform education in various organizations. That’s a little more diverse in terms of being organizational innovation. It’s one of the first innovation programs in the country and we have folks from hospital administration, the military, non-profit administration as well as higher ed. So our mission is kind of really to bring both of those programs forward and produce world-class employees for either the organization or the higher ed, college or university.

0:04:34 – Kimberly King

I love it. Developing leaders. I love that today we’re talking about getting into higher education and from an other educational background. So what do you think are the first steps that someone should take if they’re looking into higher education?

0:04:48 – Doctor Joseph Marron

Well, I think they should step back and say why, why are they- what’s their interest, why? They should educate themselves, and we’re going to do a little bit of that as we go along today. As what are the possibilities? What are the realistic possibilities for them to move in to the field of higher education? Also, to analyze their own interest: what part of higher education are they really interested in? It’s pretty broad.

I think people don’t sometimes realize that they have just an impression of maybe exactly what they went through as an undergrad or grad and they think that’s the part that, that’s all there is to higher ed. And then they- I think they start to analyze and say do I have some transferable skills that that something that I do, some skill that I possess, will transfer, will easily slip into higher education. You know, degrees also, you know- do I have a degree that higher ed might be interested in?

So I think they also should look at the field, because they should analyze, for example, in higher ed, if one wants to sort of move up the ladder or it may require moving. So if you’re geographically wish to stay in one place family, whatever, you know, you have to understand then that you’re going to be limited to the colleges and universities around you, but if you’re willing to make a career move, we’ve got approximately 5,500 colleges and universities around the nation that might be willing to employ you.

0:06:45 – Kimberly King

And that’s a great place to start, is why. I love that. So are there specific degree requirements that colleges and universities will look for in someone that is really trying to transition into higher education?

0:06:58 – Doctor Joseph Marron

It depends on the level that they would like. If they’re looking at this early in their career and they’re truly looking for like entry level, they just would like to work at a university, a bachelor’s degree in most fields can get you your foot in the door, at least to look at some entry level positions: admissions counselor, financial aid counselor do not require a master’s degree. With a master’s degree, if you want mid to entry, it doesn’t necessarily have to be a degree in higher ed. You could look at a sociology degree, a psychology degree. Colleges would look favorably on that.

If you’re going on a financial side, as I said earlier, it’s very wide where you could work. If you wanted to work in financial services at the university, any of the business degrees, accounting degrees, universities use accountants, university use- and fundraising also, you know. So it depends on that.

For faculty- and I think we may talk about this a little bit later- a doctorate has become pretty much the standard needed to teach and faculty. But there are positions open, entry level, mid-level, and again you have to kind of take the degree that you have and attach your transferable skills to it and present that to the college or the university- what you can do for them, despite not having a degree, say in educational leadership or higher ed.

0:08:51 – Kimberly King

So what about the areas or the departments at a college or university that would be realistic for someone outside of higher education to look into?

0:08:59 – Doctor Joseph Marron

They certainly- again, I think we can go back to what I said about faculty. It’s kind of an open book, other than the faculty position, without a doctorate. So we’re talking enrollment, admissions, some academic advising, could be in any of the business services at the university, institutional advancement, fundraising, athletics advising, counseling. You may have a K-12 counseling degree and it would be possible to get a position in the counseling area. Residential life and housing. It sounds funny, but we’ve hired people that are working in apartment real estate. Then they can come in and help us in residential life or housing at an undergraduate campus. So it’s pretty much a wide open thing. Again, look at the skills that you have and the degree that you have and see where can I match a little bit. Where can I tell somebody that these skills will be useful in there? So yeah.

0:10:13 – Kimberly King

And I think again you’re talking to you know all ages, right, but again, the older we get, we have the life experiences, we have the experience period. So if you have a non-higher education resume, how should you amend the resume to present yourself to the higher education community?

0:10:31 – Doctor Joseph Marron

I think, again, I don’t mean to sound like a broken record, but we go back and what are those skills that you possess? What can you put down on the resume? You know, 20 years ago people wanted to see just a degree. You know, exactly what you had. I think now you can sell yourself on the skills you’ve acquired. You know, do you have management skills? Do you have administrative skills, and that? So, fix your resume to the point that you’re really getting those out there. This is what I can do for you at the college and university.

0:11:07 – Kimberly King

And that’s good. I think you’re right, even public speaking, you know, I guess that goes in with leadership and whatnot, but people are always looking for those things that you know. Maybe, yeah, we could just highlight those great areas.

0:11:18 – Doctor Joseph Marron

Have you supervised people? Have you managed a program? Have you administered a department? You know, that’s what a college and university would be interested in, and just tweak your resume a little bit like that.

0:11:31 – Kimberly King

That’s great. Are there specific higher education websites or job sites where you can explore career options in higher education that you know of?

0:11:37 – Doctor Joseph Marron

A ton of them, to be really honest. So there’s higheredjobs.com, inside higher ed, studentaffairs.com. There are higher ed jobs listed on Indeed. There are higher ed jobs listed on LinkedIn. There’s a higher education consortium, and they all have websites, and they have again, with 5,500 colleges and universities, going back to deciding whether you’re willing to move or that- there’s going to be literally any week, thousands of positions, but they’re going to be nationwide, and so then you have to make that determination for yourself. But yeah, there’s a lot of websites, and there’s constantly positions on there.

0:12:26 – Kimberly King

That’s good to hear because, again, it’s a crazy time in the world. So, as you said, we have a lot to choose from. And then it’s also a tweak if you’re on Indeed or LinkedIn, where you just put that in there I’m looking for higher education. So what about? Do colleges and universities post specific positions and career opportunities on their website?

0:12:47 – Doctor Joseph Marron

Yes, absolutely. National University has a very detailed website of current positions. People would be surprised to know the University of California, San Diego, UCSD, probably has the most listed position of any firm, whatever we want to call it, here in San Diego, you know, at any one time. So, yes, all San Diego State and then again nationwide. You want to- you know, if something is making you want to go to Wisconsin, look up the University of Wisconsin website and all their branch campuses and that. So yes, and the good part there that’s evolved in the last 10 or 15 years, they’re very detailed, including salary at that point, so you know what you’re getting into before you start.

So there used to be a phrase- salary consummate with background and experience, and so you’d kind of wander in, go through the whole interview, and then find out that their offer is $30,000 less than what you were making. But they don’t do that anymore, and they’re very detailed and very to the college or the university, specific, including community colleges, including graduate schools.

0:14:11 – Kimberly King

And that’s good to know. I’m glad you said that, because I thought it was a California thing that you had to list what the salary was going to be. But it is pretty much nationwide. That’s great. So what about- are there professional associations within higher education and for different areas or departments that would be beneficial for those wishing to transition to higher ed and to explore?

0:14:31 – Doctor Joseph Marron

Yes, there’s almost a scary amount for all those jobs that I listed before enrollment, advising, all of that, there are associations that are tied to those- the American Association of College Registrars and Admissions Officers, ACPA, which is the Association of College Personnel Administrators, NASPA, which is National Association of Student Personnel Administrators, and it goes on and on and on. I probably could give you a list of 20, 25 of those and the good part about that, to your previous question, besides the colleges and universities having job sites and the job sites that we talked about, all of those professional associations have job sites and at many of their national or regional professional conferences, they actually hold job fairs where the colleges go there and post their job and they do some interviewing at the conferences. For every area of the college that I can think of, there’s a professional association associated with that and they then would also, in turn, have a job site that you could look at.

0:15:53 – Kimberly King

And that’s so important for just networking, right? It’s what it’s all about, and I think you could probably look up those or put something in that subject, header line for LinkedIn.

0:16:01 – Doctor Joseph Marron

They would come right up. Yeah, right up.

0:16:03 – Kimberly King

That’s good. So what about those that want to get into higher education, going to find out what the salary? We talked a little bit about that the salary and benefit packages. I think that gets overlooked a lot. Are the benefit packages, and maybe the younger people are, they don’t necessarily know to ask about that, but I think that’s a really key, important thing. So are those? Can they find out if they’re available compared to the current employment?

0:16:29 – Doctor Joseph Marron

Yes, absolutely. The job listings, as I said, have gotten much, much, much more specific and detailed salary, detailed benefit packages, and I’ve been in this a long time. I don’t want to give away my age, but I’ve been in this a long time, and I’ve watched- the benefits have improved there’s no other way to say it, benefits for all the health issues and that. And many of the colleges and universities also offer tuition remission for either yourself to get an advanced degree, say you go in at that entry level with only a bachelor’s. If you’re working there, you can get your master’s degree from them, some up through the doctorate, and then what is unbelievable is many of them offer tuition remission for your children, your immediate family.

0:17:26 – Kimberly King

Wow, that would be the reason to go.

0:17:28 – Doctor Joseph Marron

I don’t know everything about corporate benefits- I won’t claim to- but I think that our benefits within higher ed have really escalated in the last 10, 15 years and it’s a very nice package that one’s capable of getting.

0:17:40 – Kimberly King

Well, you’re a walking testimony, since you’ve been here and you know what that has done for your career and for your experience, so we appreciate that. Are there differences between what a community college and an undergraduate public or private university versus a graduate institution would look like for someone trying to transition into higher education?

0:18:01 – Doctor Joseph Marron

Not so much anymore. There used to be more, but again, it’s kind of collapsed. You know, they’re looking for the qualifications, they’re looking for the transferable skills. You know, there was a time where maybe you didn’t need an advanced degree at a community college to hit mid-level, but you pretty much do now, and more and more you need a terminal doctorate to hit higher level. So they’ve kind of come together and it’s pretty uniform now. If you know, depending on the level you’re seeking, they’re going to be very degree conscious, they’re going to be very transferable skill conscious and not too much difference.

0:18:48 – Kimberly King

Interesting. Are there currently on-campus hybrid and remote opportunities available within higher education, or has that changed?

0:18:57 – Doctor Joseph Marron

No, absolutely. There are on-ground, hybrid, remote- and a remarkable amount of each especially since the pandemic. I mean the institutions went remote and didn’t come back in some cases so- and but there are certain programs that have to have some on ground, so it becomes hybrid and that. So, yeah, there’s a lot, a lot of opportunities in in all three areas and there’s even areas where at the college, they’re looking to make that remote. Like, you noted that I work with the Institutional Review Board. The Institutional Review Board is someplace where that work can be done remotely, so you see major universities hiring outside of the area, and it isn’t a requirement that you live in the area any longer.

0:20:05 – Kimberly King

But I almost think too, National University was kind of at the forefront of being hybrid right? Like I mean, and you have people that are working full-time, going to night school or whatever. But what a great you know, I would think that everybody that turned to doing it.

0:20:20 – Doctor Joseph Marron

We were, quite honestly, a pioneer along the way. Each time, you know, first it was the working person that goes to school at night. Then it was, we offered Friday night and weekend classes. We said, we know that you’re all working. The major campaign that the university is using right now is called The And-ers, and what that says is we realize you’re coming here to go to school, but 99% chance you’re an And-er, you’re a student AND a mom. You’re a student AND working full time. You’re a student AND in the military. You know. and we understand that. We have courses, we have remote, we have hybrid, we have on ground what will fit your needs. You know some people want to drive and come to some place at 5:30 at night, get the class over with, go home and that, but and many people love the remote. So, yeah, I think we were pretty much a pioneer all along the way.

0:21:27 – Kimberly King

Yeah, that is. I recall that specifically. So it is. That’s impressive and again, just being able to meet people where they’re at I love the And-ers term. What about if you would like to teach at a college or university? What are the usual qualifications and degrees needed to attain a position as faculty?

0:21:45 – Doctor Joseph Marron

Usually now it is a terminal degree, a doctorate, either an EdD or a PhD. There are a few exceptions either an EdD or a PhD. There are a few exceptions. There is at times in the business school an MBA from a very accredited university and in the theater arts and that type of thing. An MFA is actually considered a terminal degree. But for the most part, even- it’s hard to kind of imagine this if you started 20 or 30 years ago- but even our part time faculty now, it’s a requirement to have a doctorate.

That’s the only kind of downside if you want to absolutely teach, unless you happen to be in one of the areas that the MBA is very recognized and the MFA is really recognized.

0:22:43 – Kimberly King

But I mean again, it makes you strive for that perfection, or just you know that higher education it really means something, I think. So are there part-time positions available within hire- Oh, you just talked about that, the part-time position- so with does that, is that in a particular area?

0:22:59 – Doctor Joseph Marron

Most of the part-time positions are going to be faculty positions. You know, that when putting together a university budget and you’re thinking in terms of staff, you don’t usually, you know, think part-time. You know, how many people full-time do we need to accomplish that task, that administrative task. So part-time has not crept in very much into the non-faculty side of the university.

0:23:28 – Kimberly King

Okay, what about, in closing, what would be your best advice to someone who’s looking toward transitioning into higher education as a career choice?

0:23:39 – Doctor Joseph Marron

Start by asking yourself why. Why do you want to do this? What’s driving you to want to do this? And then, what’s your long-term goal? Do you want to stay permanently at a university? Do you want to move up in a university? Do you want to work with students? Do you want a collegial atmosphere? You know, ask yourself why and then immediately say, what do I have to offer a college or a university, and what could I sell to them that they would want? So I think you do both of those things.

0:24:17 – Kimberly King

Excellent. Well, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about with this? I think it’s been such an interesting conversation and food for thought, I think, for those of us that may be thinking about getting into higher education.

0:24:29 – Doctor Joseph Marron

No, just that. Thank you very much for having me. It’s a very exciting time to be at National University and I hope that anyone who hears the podcast would consider joining us as a student.

0:24:45 – Kimberly King

Excellent and, by the way, just a quick plug, I love you’re also a pioneer, I believe, with the National University, with the military. I think you’ve really taken the front step on that.

0:24:56 – Doctor Joseph Marron

Yes. We were founded by a veteran and way back to the reasons we were talking about, he said you know, veterans leaving the military, how can they get some education? Does it have to be at night? Or even current veterans, and that got started. And then you know, we’re a pioneer in the remote. So we’re officially a military serving institution, which means over 25% of our students have military, current military or military background, and we’re also currently a Hispanic-serving institution, which means 25% of our students are Hispanic. So it’s a very exciting place to be very diverse, very inclusive, and I think people would very much enjoy National University.

0:25:54 – Kimberly King

Well, we appreciate your time. Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge, Doctor. And if you wish to get more information, you can visit National University’s website. It’s nu.edu, and we thank you very much for your time.

0:26:07 – Doctor Joseph Marron

Thank you.

0:26:11 – Kimberly King

You’ve been listening to the National University Podcast. For updates on future or past guests, visit us at nu.edu. You can also follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.