0:00:01 – Announcer

You are listening to the National University Podcast.

0:00:09 – Kimberly King

Hello, I’m Kimberly King. Welcome to the National University Podcast, where we offer a holistic approach to student support, well-being and success – the whole human education. We put passion into practice by offering accessible, achievable higher education to lifelong learners. Today, we are talking about growth mindset from career counselors. Such an interesting topic coming up ahead. And, according to an article that was by the Stanford psychologist Carol Dweck and colleagues, it is the belief that a person’s capacities and talents can be improved over time. That is what growth mindset is, and today we’re going to learn all about that. Stay with us on today’s podcast.

On today’s episode, we’re talking about how to develop a growth mindset for career success, and joining us is National University’s Director of Career Services, Ashley Forrest. Ashley has several years of experience in higher education, serving on various teams with a focus on helping students and employees be successful. Before joining the career services team, Ashley led various NU academic and finance advising teams and she participated in and led many efforts to build new advising strategies and approaches, streamline and develop processes, and bring interdepartmental leadership teams across the organization together to bring an aligned vision to improve the student experience. Ashley earned her master’s degree in professional counseling from Grand Canyon University in 2016 and her education specialist degree in special education from Northcentral University in 2019. Ashley believes everyone can reach their goals with the right mindset, and she has demonstrated a commitment and passion for higher education and professional growth. Commitment and passion for higher education and professional growth.

Also joining us is Dr. Jackie Kuss, and Jackie currently serves as National University’s career advisor, specializing in working with students and alumni in the School of Business and Economics and College of Law and Public Service. She has spent the last 20 years working in various administrative roles in higher education, with a focus on career-related work for the last 10 years. She completed her PhD in 2016 from Kent State University, with a focus in career counseling, and is an expert in career construction counseling and life design dialogue. She also serves as a faculty member for the Career Construction Network and has worked with clients all over the world. Jackie is passionate about helping others across all stages of life navigate their career journey and partnering with students to align their work, personal lives, interests, and values into meaningful careers. So impressive and I know I’ve interviewed both of you, but I’m so looking forward to having you both on today. We welcome you to the podcast. How are you?

0:03:08 – Ashley Forrest

I’m doing well, how are you doing?

0:03:09 – Kimberly King

Yeah, good, great. I learned so much from both of you last a couple of times around, so why don’t you fill our audience a little bit on your mission and your work before we get to today’s show topic? And I’ll start with you, Ashley.

0:03:25 – Ashley Forrest

Okay, I think, overall, my mission really is to help remove barriers, help people feel successful and feel more confident in their ability to navigate whatever it is that they’re navigating. Most of the time it’s the unknown and it’s a very personal journey to each person. So being able to help them understand what their journey should be, what are the barriers that are preventing them from getting there, and then how can I help remove those, I think is probably one of the most impactful things that I get to do.

0:03:51 – Kimberly King

I love that. That’s so great because you can see her and hear your passion. What about you, Dr. Kus?

0:03:56 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Oh, my goodness, similarly right. So I mean the whole reason I pursued a doctorate degree, my PhD- and I really my emphasis was studying kind of meaning making and what you know, how people come to develop, meaning making around their career decisions really was a passion point for mine, being someone who really struggled figuring out what you know, the tall, the tall ask right? What do you want to be for the rest of your life? What are you going to do? What’s, what’s the career pathway? That was a hard question for me to answer for a lot of years. That was a hard question for me to answer for a lot of years. And so being able to give back, help, support others, identify you know their pathways, their journeys, feel confident in their decision making, really feel valued and in whatever career pathway they choose to go in. So it’s all about giving back and it’s truly just passion work, is what it is.

0:04:44 – Kimberly King

I love that and in today’s world I mean, there’s just there’s so many opportunities and I remember speaking with both of you, but it’s really that not everybody has that the ability to identify where you can land. And just you hear things and you’re like, oh you know what? Have you ever thought about this? And I think that’s just so impressive and, again, it really it feeds your passion and I can see that in both of you.

0:05:08 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

And it’s just- there’s not an age to it either. Like you sit there and think you know 18 to 22, maybe traditional college, whatever, high school. You even get that question in high school. What are you going to do when you’re done? What are you going to do next- what’s the next step? There’s literally no time gap on that. We have this in all phases of life, that you’re questioning. what am I doing? What do I want to do? What do I want to be when I grow up? That’s like the age-old question, but we constantly ask ourselves that through all stages of life.

0:05:32 – Ashley Forrest

Well, and it changes along the way too- what it is when you start at 18 compared to what it is at 30 or 40 or 50, it changes based on who you are at the time and what you’re looking for in your life.

0:05:50 – Kimberly King

Absolutely, and I also feel like back in the day when our parents, and maybe grandparents especially, you know, stayed in those careers forever. But now that second or even third career can be, you know, a challenge. It could be interesting. People just go and go, and as long as I feel like you’re feeding your passion, why not? Right? And I love that you’re there cheering people on. So today we are talking about how to get into a growth mindset for career success. And so, starting again with you, Ashley, what does having a growth mindset mean to you and how has it impacted your career journey?

0:06:22 – Ashley Forrest

I think it really means embracing any of those challenges and seeing the obstacles as an opportunity to learn. It’s placed in your path so that you have an opportunity to learn. It’s placed in your path so that you have an opportunity to learn and overcome that and kind of figure out what you’re capable of. Getting out of my comfort zone and kind of doing the things that didn’t go well were some of the more powerful learning experiences for me. It really showed me what can I do, what am I capable of, what are my limitations and what am I interested in, what am I qualified for, and I think that that’s shifted along the way.

There were a lot of things that if you would have asked me five, 10 years ago, could you see yourself doing this in five to 10 years? I would have absolutely said no, that is not something that’s on my path. I don’t have the skills required for this thing. But having those opportunities that I was uncomfortable, I got to learn, I got to grow, really shaped the mindset now to where I’m like, I can do that. You can do hard things. It doesn’t matter what it looks like today, where do you want to be? And how do you get there? So I think that’s been the biggest thing is viewing those challenges and those obstacles as opportunities to learn and to grow. You will get a little uncomfortable, but it’s going to be so worth it in the end.

0:07:31 – Kimberly King

Got to put that time in there. Huh, Dr. Kus, did you want to add anything to that?

0:07:36 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Just in essence, it really is the journey. Like truly, that growth mindset is all about the journey. It’s less about getting from point A to point B and for some people it is, you know, point A to point B but within that there’s so much to be learned and so much growing and opportunity there, and I think just appreciating that, appreciating that journey, can really contribute to that growth mindset.

0:08:00 – Kimberly King

So while I have you on here, Dr. Kus, I’m going to ask you the next question- why do you think cultivating a growth mindset is essential for career success, and particularly in a fast changing workplace?

0:08:13 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah, I mean, the world of work has definitely shifted and changed decade by decade and truly even now- you can even think post-pandemic work world- is completely different than it was five years ago, which is just rapid, rapid change.

But really I think it keeps you on that cusp of just continuous growth right, keeps you energized and invigorated about learning, figuring out new opportunities to challenge yourself, to overcome setbacks, keeps you kind of craving more, maybe appreciating kind of the journey that you’re on and not getting stagnant in a role. Right, like you said, we’re not seeing people in jobs for 20, 30, 40 years anymore. That’s just not the way of work anymore. People are, you know, two, four, five years moving on into their next role or the next opportunity, and people are also being more critical of what they want to get in that job or in that career path or in that opportunity. So that kind of persistent growth, I think, just makes people more resilient and more adaptable and because of that it makes you more marketable in different opportunities. So people are chasing that.

0:09:22 – Kimberly King

And anything you want to say, Ashley on that?

0:09:24 – Ashley Forrest

I think the only thing that I would add is, in addition to that, it also helps you navigate those changes a lot easier if you’re constantly open to the opportunities and those challenges, rather than getting stuck or having that rigidity, where you don’t feel like you can move forward. I think that’s super, super important and if you, if you aren’t able to adapt quickly or be flexible in those fast-changing environments, you risk getting left behind. You risk feeling like you’re not contributing in a way that’s meaningful to you and you lose satisfaction in your job. So I think being able to be open and have that growth mindset also helps you, in the long run, feel more comfortable and confident in your role as it changes.

0:10:05 – Kimberly King

I think it’s so interesting that you know, just having a conversation again, no matter what the age of the person is, but you know, by just saying hey, have you ever thought about this, or you know, and just kind of showing them the stepping stones, it really helps your psyche, you know, and just and letting people know that- and I think it was when I last spoke with you, Dr. Kus- where you see and you hear things that you can identify for a different career or just promoting, and maybe we just kind of hold ourselves, we’re our own worst enemy, I think, in so many ways, and so for having those conversations with women like yourselves, it really is so beneficial. I can think of a whole list of people right now that I would love to put in touch with both of you that are not necessarily stuck-

0:10:52 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Send them my way, I’m happy to talk to them.

0:10:57 – Kimberly King

Yay. [Laughter.] Can you share a personal example of when adopting a growth mindset helped you overcome a challenge? Let me ask you, Ashley, first.

0:11:07 – Ashley Forrest

Sure, there’s been no shortage of opportunities for growth along my career. One in particular, I think, was within the last couple of years, but we’ve been experiencing a change across the institution, merging two organizations together, and one of the opportunities that was presented was developing a training for one of our larger teams that’s very student-facing, making sure that we’re able to support them along the way while navigating all of the changes that are going on within the institution. And I’ve always prided myself on being someone that can be seen as a resource. I like knowing the answers. I like knowing where the resources are if I don’t know the answers and who to go to, and this was very much outside of my comfort zone and my current skill set. I didn’t know all of the answers. I didn’t even know where to find some of the answers.

It wasn’t something I had a whole lot of experience with, and so it was a big challenge being able to try to understand the processes while training others to understand the processes that I didn’t feel comfortable with myself. So it gave me an opportunity to really learn more about how things worked across the organization, connecting with others who were more familiar in those areas and really leaning on my subject matter experts and saying help me understand, walk me through this process so that I can make sure we’re building robust training for this team. Walk me through this process so that I can make sure we’re building robust training for this team and learning how to lean on others a little bit more.

I was always that person in high school that was the leader of the group and I would take on the responsibility of navigating it all, and this forced me to kind of take a step back and help lead the conversation, lead the building of it, but I didn’t know all of the information and it wasn’t the most comfortable.

I stumbled a lot, but being able to take the feedback and having open, honest conversations with the team that I was working with and saying how can we improve, what are some gaps, what are some areas of opportunity, really helped it come to fruition. There were still learnings along the way. It wasn’t perfect, but we got it to be way better than if it were just Ashley doing it on her own, so that this team was better set up for success along the way. And then we took the learnings and implemented that for future iterations of that class, so that it can always be better. So I think that’s the one that comes to mind the most, and it really did help overcome that challenge. I made some really great relationships along the way and it worked. We finished it and the team was trained, and everything has been implemented for about two years now, which was really exciting.

0:13:34 – Kimberly King

Wow, congratulations, that’s great. Thank you for leading with that example. What about you, Dr. Kus?

0:13:42 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Oh my goodness. I think about, like the power of reflection, because that’s truly such a value add to this whole process. I can speak I mean, same as Ashley- I can speak to a dozen examples, you know. One that comes to mind is being in an executive decision-making role right? during a pandemic at a brick and mortar university here in Colorado, making decisions that information is just rolling out and we are trying to make decisions that are in the best interest of the students and our constituents and the parents and the employees. Like it became such a process, with a lot of thoughtfulness, missteps, errors… What are other people doing? Like, so many opportunities to learn, setbacks, like, and every critical conversation provided an opportunity to really reflect, stop and think, is this the best decision? Does this make the most sense? What can we take away from this to make sure that, you know, the student experience isn’t impacted too greatly?

But we’re like- the whole world was in a space of learning and growing and trying to figure things out, and so being in a position that you know everyone’s kind of looking to you like so what’s next? What’s the plan, what’s the process? And to kind of have to sit in that seat and make those decisions, you know, leaning on peers, reading about research, what are other institutions doing? Staying, you know, current with the CDC and all these different components right, really, really challenged me to step into having a growth mindset that we may not get it right and that’s not the worst thing ever as long as people are still safe.

We will do the best that we can and where we can autocorrect or make an adjustment, we will. We’ll step into those positions and I’m going to sit back and reflect and see, The resilience I came out of that, I can speak to that experience 100 times over from different angles but truly I think I’m more confident in my decision-making, my ability to collaborate with others, taking that feedback, really implementing decision-making from a strong point you know, point of view was the learning, even though it was challenging and hard. Like going through the hard things, you learn some of the most crucial information about yourself.

0:15:55 – Kimberly King

I love that example too and I really you just kind of explained- you know the behind the scenes from where you sit- and you know we all have our challenges with COVID and that learning process. But I love that what you said too, it is a learning curve and that’s when we learn the most. Sometimes, and especially if you have that perfectionist mindset where you’re like, oh my gosh, this has to be perfect. But you know, let yourself, you know ease up a little bit and know that there’s no right or wrong and that people forgive. Right, if we go in one direction, we can easily turn it around and go in another direction.

0:16:32 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Absolutely, absolutely.

0:16:33 – Kimberly King

So, Dr. Kus, what practical strategies do you recommend for developing and maintaining a growth mindset?

0:16:40 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah, I would say again, like being able to reflect.

0:16:44 – Kimberly King

Yeah, I love that.

0:16:45 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

You know, if that’s writing things down or if that’s just, you know, openly verbalizing but reflecting back on things and not being hard on oneself, but instead looking at it from a positive approach of what are the key takeaways, what are some key learnings, what could I have done differently or done better? Like that’s really important- being incredibly open minded as well, seeing the value of setbacks, if they happen. So, again, if you’re like that perfectionist who can be really hard on yourself, just stop and give yourself grace that in those hard moments you learn something about yourself, your ability to persevere, your adaptability, your resilience. If it’s strength and decision-making, whatever it may be, I think it’s just really important maintaining that positive perspective, having again that reflection for that growth and learning are just really great strategies.

0:17:34 – Kimberly King

Yeah, and sometimes it takes looking at whatever you’ve written down to be able to you know, especially if you’re a visual person. What about you, Ashley?

0:17:44 – Ashley Forrest

I would say also actively seeking out feedback. So you’ve had the opportunity to reflect on everything, how you would have done it differently, if you would have done it differently and what did you learn from it? And I think getting an objective second opinion is also really helpful in saying, hey, this is what I did, this was the outcome. What would you have done? Would you have done anything differently? And then also to Jackie’s point- being open-minded. I think saying yes more than saying no is going to help you identify some of those opportunities.

Setting boundaries is also important, so don’t just be a yes person, but being open to the new experiences also kind of helps you just get those experiences. If you don’t say yes, you’re not going to have that experience. But surrounding yourself with like-minded people who are also interested in learning and growing. We have an incredible team for career services here at National University that we really do get to lean on each other and say, hey, can you come attend this speaking engagement or this workshop and listen and provide me feedback afterwards so that I can improve? It’s incredible because we’re always looking for areas of growth. But I think the biggest thing is pushing through that discomfort. Growth is uncomfortable. You are not going to know all of the answers or feel like you’ve got it all together, but I think if you’re super comfortable in your role, that means you’re probably not growing anymore because there aren’t new things to learn in that space. So just being open to that and saying yes, more, I think, is my-

0:19:14 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

And also being the I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can do the things. More so than the I can’t- and the I can comes with, there will be a way. I will figure it out, and that is learning right? I will figure it out, I will find a solution, I will self-educate, I will lean on my peers, I will lean on my leaders, I will figure things out. But having that I can attitude is a really big component of that growth mindset. So, being the yes, but also being the I can, I can do hard things, I can do hard things and I can do hard things and –

0:19:49 – Kimberly King

It makes you feel so much more accomplished when you can check that off and say I’ve done that, I’ve been there, I’ve learned and I’ve grown and stretched. And yeah. Ashley, how can someone avoid common pitfalls like self-doubt or fear of failure when trying to build that growth mindset which we’ve been discussing a little bit. But how do we get past that?

0:20:06 – Ashley Forrest

I think reframing things. Jackie hit it on the head with the I can statements, focusing on the I can. You may not know how just yet, but you will figure it out. Everything is figureoutable. So being able to recognize that and push yourself past those limits and surround yourself with people that will help push you out of your comfort zone so you get those experiences.

But really celebrating the things that go well. Maybe you didn’t hit the overall mark that you’re aiming for, but you did steps one through three, excellently. Cool. We know that we can do one through three. Now we need to get four through six down. So really celebrating the progress that you’ve made along the way is going to be important. Because I always see this meme where it’s a couple of ladders next to each other and one has really really far spaced rungs and the other has really small. So you can have the different stepping stones along the way and get to that goal a lot faster. If you’re celebrating along the way, rather than these really large things, that you’re not seeing the progress, you’re feeling defeated along the way or not feeling like you’re hitting that mark. So being able to break it down into bite-sized pieces I think is also helpful. You’re celebrating those things and focusing on the one thing in front of you right now. And then we’ll get to the two and three and four. And going back to that failure piece and knowing that it’s a learning opportunity.

Failure isn’t an inherently bad thing. I know we have this negative mindset when we think of failure because it’s scary and it’s hard and we want things to go well. But to Jackie’s point, we can do hard things and as long as you’re taking the learnings away from that and seeing, ok, what can I do next time differently? Would I do anything differently? Was there anything that was maybe outside of my control? Is there anything that I could have done to avoid whatever this outcome was? And then that self-reflection piece, doing regular check-ins and seeing am I where I want to be? And if I am, what else can I do next? Because that means I’m not growing anymore.

But if I’m not, what steps do I need to take to get there? Can I talk to somebody? Can I have a conversation with Jackie and say, hey, this is really what I’m wanting to do, what are your recommendations? Or I’ve tried X, Y and Z and I’m stuck. I don’t know where to go from here. I think those are some of the better ways to navigate that, but it’s going to be individual, based on what your needs are. So just being open and honest with yourself, first and foremost, about where you are and where you want to be, and then having that accountability partner and saying this is what my goal is. Even if they don’t help you any more than just being a person to listen. It’s out there now so you feel a little more invigorated or feel obligated, I guess, to complete whatever that task is or that goal is.

0:22:56 – Kimberly King

I love because you both are so passionate about it, but it must be such a really- It happens a lot, I’m sure, where people just do get stuck and they’ve kind of forget to dream or, you know, think about themselves and what it is that they really want to do. So, having you as the guiding counselors in there, I love that. I love that for both of you because I can see it come through. Dr. Kus, this is something you’ve been talking about a lot and that’s that self-reflection piece. Why is that important in understanding your current state and future aspirations and how do you personally approach this?

0:23:33 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah. So really, self-reflection it’s a tool, right, and it allows you to see things from an outside perspective. It encourages you to explore your feelings and different attitudes that could be hindering you from growing, right. I just think there’s so much value in it in terms of acknowledging kind of a level of maturity, of reflexivity, right. Being able to step outside yourself and say like this wasn’t a growing edge for me, this really was. I think, truly it provides a platform for people to be able to go and close that gap, learn a new skill, identify maybe a way that they can be better, you know, or do better in all areas of life.

So I mean, I’m a big proponent of reflection, even if it’s just at the end of the day, sitting down and jotting down some notes about how your day went. I do a lot of this with students and alumni and clients is you know if they’re really struggling in, say, the job market. I literally just send out a couple emails and they just having another person sit there and remind them of these great skills and encouraging them to do the same thing. Stop and jot down some of your small victories. What are some digestible wins that you’ve had? Talk to me about where you’re struggling, and then allow me an opportunity to remind you that your success rate of getting through things has been 100%. So it may feel really hard now, but I can tell you you’ve gotten through all these other tough things that you shared with me in your life thus far, which means you have 100% success rate. You’re good, things will be okay.

0:25:03 – Kimberly King

I like that. And sometimes we’re so busy going through it that, yeah, we just don’t have time to write it down and think about like, wow, what I just went through is a pretty big deal, and so seeing that and that just adds to the betterment, it goes into the positive, you know, and it makes us feel better, like we’ve accomplished all of this. Ashley, how can professionals effectively seek out and use feedback to fuel their personal and career growth?

0:25:29 – Ashley Forrest

I think, really framing it in a way that is showing your commitment to that growth, like how can I improve in this area? Is there anything I should have done differently? What would you do in this situation? And making sure that you’re actively listening, first and foremost. It shouldn’t be a debate when you’re seeking out feedback, that you’re asking for somebody to help you learn and grow. So sitting back and listening to the feedback that they’re providing, whether you agree or not, I think is going to be a really important piece.

And in most circumstances, I would encourage you to jot it down when they’re providing feedback in those spaces, because sometimes feedback is hard to hear. And it’s not usually meant to be punitive or anything. It’s meant to give you an opportunity to learn and grow. But if you’re not in a space where you can hear that feedback, it’s going to be really difficult for you to implement it.

So, jotting it down, taking a moment to do that self-reflection and see how do I feel about this, where is this feedback coming from? And asking clarifying questions again not in a challenging way, but seeking to understand and being curious to see. Okay, what are some examples where maybe I could have done this differently? Or maybe I had an opportunity to learn here and I didn’t take the opportunity, or whatever the case may be. But then, after you’ve had a moment to sit with that feedback and really reflect on how you might implement that, actually taking action and implementing that feedback, showing that you value that person’s opinion and giving it a try.

It may not work for you the first time, and that’s okay. But I think that’s another piece to really focus on is everyone is their own individual person, so what works for me in a lot of circumstances may not work for Jackie or Kim or anyone else. You’re going to have to find something that’s authentic to who you are in that space and then take that and move forward with it. So I think there’s a couple pieces of it. You get to choose how you take the feedback and how you implement it. At the end of the day, it’s only impacting you, in most circumstances. So if you’re not open to it or you’re not in a space where you can take action on that, you’re only hurting yourself, or you’re only kind of stunting your growth. So being open, being curious and asking those questions along the way, I think, is going to help you navigate those situations and making sure that when you’re asking for that feedback you’re in a space where you can hear it.

0:27:44 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

I also think it can really come from the least likely of places. That’s the other really beautiful thing- If you’re receptive to feedback, to ask people that maybe you wouldn’t you know think would be willing to offer you feedback, like not just your close personal friends and family who you think may be giving you affirmative feedback, but can be colleagues, can be professional mentors, can be people that you’ve just worked on a project with and say you know, I’m really interested to hear kind of your thoughts and see what- I mean, little nuggets of quality information they can provide you of insight- that the learning doesn’t just have to come from someone who maybe evaluates you, but those spaces where you can seek out feedback can come from pretty, you know, least likely spaces.

0:28:28 – Kimberly King

Yeah, that’s a good, that’s really good advice right there too. Dr. Kus, what are some ways to grow and leverage a professional network to support a growth-oriented career journey?

0:28:39 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

No, absolutely, I think, I mean in a lot of ways we really are an interconnected community, so there’s a lot of like two degrees of separation with a lot of people that someone knows someone, who may know someone, and so I’ve talked about this before in terms of your professional network can exist within your personal network as it kind of grows out into these more concentric circles in terms of your level of involvement or, you know, how close you may know them.

But just take advantage of those opportunities to chat with professionals, either in your industry, maybe adjacent. People that you maybe have just met can be really insightful. Take advantage of chatting with strangers. You know, I’ve talked about this before that there’s a lot of value to be brought if you are open to just connecting with new faces and new people, because you just never know what type of role they may have or information they may have or their willingness to engage with you and who they know. So it really is kind of that two degrees of separation piece or the concentric circles of connectivity that we tend to have in this world, but making sure that you are just being truly intentional with your connections and taking advantage of those opportunities and not to shy away from it.

0:29:54 – Kimberly King

Well, I like that and it is true, like just really knowing all of these people that are in our circles. And again, that networking piece, I don’t know that we do enough of that. You know, or think about it, anyway. Ashley, we did talk a little bit about constructive criticism and how that plays a role in achieving career goals. But how else can you encourage others to embrace constructive criticism?

0:30:19 – Ashley Forrest

I think essentially it’s- constructive criticism is a mirror. It’s holding it up against who you are and what you’re bringing to the table and identifying areas that you can improve on. And oftentimes people see those as flaws, and I would disagree with that statement. It’s just an opportunity that maybe you haven’t experienced before, or maybe it’s a chance to grow that skill set. Maybe you’ve started but you’re not where you want to be. So you have an opportunity to continue to grow there.

But in almost all situations and in all of my experiences, it’s never meant to be punitive. I know I’ve mentioned that previously, but the goal really is to offer a different perspective. It really is to give you something that maybe you can’t see or identify on your own because you’re too close to it. You have your own perspective and interpretation of how things go and you know your intentions behind everything that you’re doing. That outside perspective doesn’t, so they’re giving you a perspective of. This is what it’s coming across as- regardless of your intentions. My perspective is my reality. So how do we make sure that we’re marrying the two so that it’s a little bit more aligned?

But the goal, it really is to help you improve and learn and grow and be better than the day before, and making sure that when you do have those opportunities to learn and grow, that you’re sharing them. Maybe somebody else can learn from that opportunity as well, and it makes it feel less like that failure that we’re all afraid of and more like an opportunity to help other people. And by not sharing those experiences, you might be robbing somebody of an opportunity to learn from the things that you’ve gone through. It may give them a new perspective and they’re like oh, I hadn’t considered that, I’m going to try that differently next time.

So I think that’s probably one of the biggest things that I would say is make sure that you are reflecting, you are sharing, you are looking for those opportunities and keeping in mind that that person that you’re asking for feedback or that’s providing feedback is probably just trying to help you so that you can be better. It’s not just a oh, I gotcha, you didn’t do this thing how you’re supposed to. It’s hey, have you considered trying this approach? Or, I noticed that your tone sounded like this. Probably wasn’t your intention, so I wanted to bring it to your, bring it to your attention, so that you can reflect on that and see if you want to change it.

0:32:36 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Moving forward, I think it’s also worth adding to not and to be like cognizant of this right, as you’re getting um constructive criticism.

Not everyone may have the delivery that you appreciate and not everyone is necessarily good at this like, giving feedback on any form or fashion is a skill yeah, that has to be a developed skill, it is, it’s so, true.

But also that criticism like that’s also a skill, and so I think to some degree as on the receiving end you have to be able to be cognizant of that- that it’s coming from a well-intended place, although the delivery might not have been appreciated, and I can just try to navigate through that and figure out what was the feedback and what can I take away from it.

Some things you may have to pack up and say that appreciate it, thank you wasn’t necessarily relevant, but again, because it’s the skill that the other person offering that feedback or that criticism doesn’t tend to have. But it’s not a personal attack, and I like to believe that if you ask for feedback and if you ask for constructive feedback, which comes with potential criticism, that that person’s coming from a well-intended place, and they’re not meaning to hurt your feelings or to personally attack you or to make you feel bad about yourself. But you and yourself need to be reassured that, as I’m asking for this, it’s truly an effort to be my best self or to be better and to grow. But I don’t want to like not tip my head at the fact that not everybody is great at this, and so it would be remiss not to say like, hey, go get feedback, it’s great, we’re going to encourage feedback, we’re going to encourage, you know, asking for this. Not everyone’s great at delivering it, and that’s just the reality of the situation. But, again, well-intended for most people.

0:34:12 – Kimberly King

No, I love that. And you kind of started off, Ashley, by kind of flipping the script. It may not be exactly what you think, so go in there thinking positively and it might be in all of the delivery and consider the source. My mom always used to say that- Consider the source. How do you recommend identifying and nurturing skill gaps to stay competitive in your industry? And I’ll ask you, Dr. Kus.

0:34:37 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah, I really think, just being realistic about where you’re at and then also being knowledgeable. I tell people, the only way you’re going to know, kind of, where you have a skill gap or where you may be needing to improve or grow or learn more, is by seeing what’s going on in that particular industry. And the best way to do that is to look across job descriptions. It’s going to be the most informative space for you to kind of look. So if I’m looking at this business analyst role, right, generally role, looking across these different job descriptions and start seeing what are they asking for, and then how does that compare with what I come to the table with, like taking stock of my own skill sets, where are there gaps between what I’m seeing thematically across these job descriptions with what I offer?

And then let’s go ahead and close that gap. Let’s, you know, employ some tactics, some education, some learnings to close that gap, to make myself the most marketable person, person, possible. That also includes having a plan, right. So again, I said, like strategizing, listing your own skills, looking across the industry, talking with other people too, because they can give you a little bit of insight into the “hidden” responsibilities that exist in a job that aren’t typically outlined in a job description, which happens all the time. And then kind of, how are you going to close that skill gap, giving yourself a reasonable timeline to do so, to give yourself the most opportunity to be a viable candidate for any particular role or search?

0:36:05 – Kimberly King

I love that about checking other job descriptions. I think that’s great. There are kind of guidelines along that side.

0:36:12 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Absolutely. It’s so informative. And it’s such a practice that people don’t always employ. But I’m like just go do some snowball research, Just start with one job and takes you to another job, and takes you to another job. But they’re all kind of in the same like umbrella of roles.

Yeah, and then you can know are they all asking you to have this certification? Are they all kind of expecting you to have this technical skill? Do they want you to have this particular learning? Let’s go get that. Let’s achieve that- Best way to know what you’re after in your market, in your industry, to be competitive. Well, what are they asking for?

0:36:42 – Kimberly King

Yeah.

0:36:46 – Ashley Forrest

Exactly. when you’re looking for those opportunities. If you’re, especially if you’re looking for promotional opportunities internally, another option might be setting up a shadow session with individuals that are already in that role so you can get a better idea of what they’re looking for or what their day-to-day looks like. Or like an interview-style meeting to ask questions about those skills and how did you get where you are? What are the things that you did so you can get some additional insight. But I think, Jackie, you hit it on the head- really filling those gaps, like identifying them first and foremost, but then actually taking action on them and being curious, always asking questions.

0:37:26 – Kimberly King

Yeah, I love that. How can individuals learn to view failure as a learning opportunity rather than a setback? And you both have kind of touched on that a little bit, but I know, living in the positive right and then reframing, I think you’ve kind of touched on too, Ashley.

0:37:41 – Ashley Forrest

Yeah, I think it really is a perspective shift first and foremost. You have to understand why are you looking for those, what are you looking for and why are you looking for those opportunities? How do you currently see those failures, those obstacles, those insert whatever negative term you want to use, and what are you hoping to get out of it? And being able to reframe that and say, okay, this is why I’m doing this, this is why it’s important to me and this is how I’m going to get there. And then getting there, telling yourself- that self-talk is super, super important. Everybody can tell you how incredible you are, but until you believe it yourself, it’s not going to do you a whole lot of good. You’re like, no, that makes me uncomfortable, I don’t agree, I don’t believe you, whatever.

But when you start shifting your perspective and saying I can do this, I’m capable. I may not have all of the skills that I need, but I can get there, I can do the learnings, I can do the research, I can find the information that I need. I’m confident we’ll figure it out, that’s when the real magic, I think, starts happening and you really open your mind. You open your opportunities and your trajectory. For lack of better words, like there is no task too small, too big or whatever that you can’t accomplish. So really being able to look at it as that opportunity to learn, to grow, to be better, to have a new experience, to maybe stumble here and there and realize I don’t want to do that again. So this is what I’m going to do differently and here’s how we’re going to reframe this.

It really does build that resilience and that perseverance along the way and shows you okay, it’s just a bump in the road, we’ve got this. It doesn’t matter what this is, we’ll figure it out. And then again, it goes back to sharing those learnings and helping others learn and grow. I think that was something that was really powerful for me. For the longest time, early in my leadership journey, I was like no, I can’t let people see me fail. It’s a bad thing. If I’m failing, I’m not a good leader. But it’s actually the opposite. It’s I’m human-

0:39:34 – Kimberly King

Yeah. I love that.

0:39:40 – Ashley Forrest

I’m learning just as much as you are and we’re going to figure this out together. Even if I don’t know the answer today, I know we’ll find it. I know we’ll find a path forward. So being able to be in that space with yourself, which can be challenging, sitting with yourself and really reflecting is hard. But then also being in that space with those around you, being that resource and learning and growing, and stumbling here and there together, I think is really powerful. But the ability to bounce back from those failures and those opportunities is really what sets you apart. And it’s a natural part of growth. I mean we, none of us knew everything from the jump, we had to learn along the way as simple as talking and crawling and walking and whatever and now we’re fully functional adults. So it was a process getting there, and it’s going to be a process learning.

0:40:17 – Kimberly King

No- 100%. I think the most inspiring is the stories of those challenges of people falling and getting up and you know, and it’s never a comfortable, easy thing to go through, but it’s when you get up and you say, oh yep, I’m human and that is where everybody can see themselves, in that, in that journey.

0:40:42 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

That’s where a great career counselor can step in and like help facilitate that conversation, or even just a good friend.

If you don’t want to talk to me about, maybe a time that was really difficult for you and share, which, again, a good career counselor is going to build some rapport with you. So we’re going to do everything we can to build that relationship and that foundation. So you feel trusting to share these things, right? And allowing that person the opportunity just to kind of share, like, okay, well, I’ll talk about something that was really hard in life and I went through it and really getting to the point where, after it happened, then what? And letting them explain that, because that’s really them telling you in their expert voice, what they learned, and then you can give that right back to them and say, well, do you see what you just shared with me? Because you’ve made it through it and you have this great takeaway.

0:41:30 – Kimberly King

I love that, and that’s the part that we just don’t take the time to realize, that reflection part, part that we just don’t take the time to realize that, that reflection part and um. So yeah, you’re exactly right about um, talking back to them and making it say it out loud, I guess, right, do you hear yourself? Yeah, you know what you just went through?

0:41:46 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Exactly. And a good friend will do that. A good friend and a good counselor, those are the. They’ll do it. They’ll do it for you. A good boss, all of us, you know, we’ll all step in and do that, do that of well, allow me to share with you the things you just shared with me.

0:41:58 – Kimberly King

Like every day is Christmas, right? What advice do you have for stepping out of your comfort zone and embracing discomfort as a part of growth? And I know, Ashley, you’ve kind of talked a little bit about this. What’s your advice to somebody in that situation?

0:42:22 – Ashley Forrest

Start small.

0:42:23 – Kimberly King

Yeah, you said that a little bit and I love that. You don’t have to accomplish the whole mountain right.

0:42:24 – Ashley Forrest

No, you can take it one step at a time. Start getting out of your comfort zone a little bit. Maybe it’s speaking up in a team meeting or sharing your ideas or providing feedback on this thing, or raising your hand to be a part of a project that maybe you’re not as comfortable with or familiar with. You’re not leading it, but at least you get to be a part of the journey, and really being able to embrace those gradual changes and those gradual growth moments. It’s not going to all happen fast and furious, hopefully, if they don’t want it to.

There are opportunities where it’s going to come very quickly, especially in a fast-paced environment. And there’s a book out there. It’s called Feel the Fear and Do it Anyway. I can’t remember the author, but I remember it being very impactful for me early on in my career and I couldn’t agree more. You can do hard things. Things are scary, especially the first or second time that you do it, but the more that you do it, the more comfortable you feel and then you can continue to build on those skills.

So I think, starting small, knowing that it’s not going to be perfect when you first start, knowing that you’re going to stumble and you’re going to learn along the way and you’re going to course correct, but knowing also that you can do it, you are capable and you’re going to come out better on the other side every single time, even if it didn’t go well, you’re going to learn something from it and if it did go well, it went well and that’s fantastic. So you want to celebrate those things. But I think starting small is the first step.

0:43:46 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

What’s that quote? Like if you want to run a marathon, you just got to take that first step. Like you’re just never going to get anywhere if you don’t. As scary as that, as that can be like you just have to take that first step you know you can always step back off, you know right?

0:44:03 – Kimberly King

But at least you try. Dr. Kus, why are adaptability and flexibility key components of growth mindset, and how can professionals develop these qualities?

0:44:15 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

So important, right right, being adaptable and being flexible. I mean rigidity is like such a debilitating part of life. If you are not able to be the ever-changing, it’s so, so hard. You’re not willing to change and be adaptable with the change in every aspect.

0:44:34 – Kimberly King

How fast it goes, goes right and the world always change, that’s the whole beauty about-

0:44:37 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

And we’ve learned it can pivot in a- overnight, right, we can have complete mass change overnight, yeah, so it really just being adaptable and flexible allows you to make those appropriate shifts that will essentially expose you to those new opportunities, right? So flexibility helps with the discomfort of it all. Right, it’s not as uncomfortable- If you have a very rigid mindset, like I need to do exactly this. It has to go this way and there’s no room for you to be flexible, you are setting yourself up for failure, frustration, agitation, like all the emotions that aren’t comfortable to deal with. So you either can accept that, and deal with those uncomfortable you know emotions, or you can be learned to be flexible and realize that we will eventually get to where we’re needing to go. Even if we’re off track here or there, I’m going to be able to learn and it’s not going to be as bad, because there are other ways, you know, that we can navigate. Truly, these I mean adaptability and flexibility are key skill sets for anybody in any industry.

When you’re looking at growth, when you’re looking at moving up the chain because, again, decisions can come top down in a matter of moments, and they may not have been what you originally intended or planned or prepared for, and so being able to pivot, accept those change, learn from them, really sets people up for professional career success in a multitude of ways.

0:46:07 – Kimberly King

I love that. How do you identify and build a meaningful relationship with a mentor and why is this important for career success? And this is for you, Ashley.

0:46:18 – Ashley Forrest

I think it’s important to identify somebody that you feel comfortable with and you can be honest with, but also someone that has a career path that aligns with yours or that has skills that you’re looking to gain. Doesn’t necessarily have to be that they’re in the same role that you’d like to be in, but maybe you’ve identified that they’re incredible with their communication or they have a really great approach for navigating conflict or difficult conversations that you really want to learn more about. So identifying those individuals and reaching out with that specific purpose.

If you’re looking for a mentor, you should have an idea of what you’re looking for and not put that on the mentor to figure out. So being very clear with what your goals are and what you’re hoping to get out of the relationship, and being respectful of their time, I think, is going to be really important as well, because they’re going to be doing you a favor by providing that feedback and that guidance and they want to see you learn and grow and be successful, but you don’t want to take advantage of that.

So being very intentional when you’re reaching out and saying this is what I’m looking for. I know that you’re really good at X, Y and Z and I’m hoping to learn from you, and here’s how I’d hope to do that. Or maybe I’m not quite sure what approach to take or how to navigate this, but these are some of the things that I’m hoping to get out of this conversation. Sometimes it’s just one conversation to say, I’m looking for this one thing. I want to pick your brain about it. Sometimes it’s a more long-term relationship type of thing where you meet regularly and you talk through different scenarios or bring different experiences and be able to work through like how can we do things differently and what would you do? Or what’s your experience with this thing? But a good mentor is really going to be able to help guide you through some of those challenges while not giving you the answer. They should be asking you questions and saying, okay, well, what do you think you should do? How do you think you should navigate this? Because if I’m giving you the answer, you’re not really learning.

So being able to challenge some of your ideas, or have you considered a different perspective in this, or this is coming across this way to me, what was your intention? Or what were you trying to accomplish by delivering this message or this training or insert whatever, and then also providing that feedback along the way and saying, well, actually I think that was a little harsh, I would have done it this way. Have you considered how your team member might have felt when you provided that feedback?

Going back to the delivery, it’s not always great. It is a skill that you have to work on and sometimes I know personally, I’ve had to go back and say you know, that wasn’t my best self. Can we try again? That didn’t land how I intended it to. Let’s try this another time, or I can see that we’re getting a little frustrated or heated, let’s take a pause for a second and revisit this conversation. Because it’s not going to land perfectly.

And I think mentorship is a very personal journey. You have to find a fit that’s right for you, just like a partner through life. You have to find somebody that’s going to align with your values and the way that you’re looking to do things, and it’s a process. Same with counseling, like you want to find somebody that’s going to fit your needs, and it’s not always the first person you meet with or that you work with, or you’re not always going to agree with the feedback. So, being open to that, and sometimes you have multiple mentors. Maybe this person’s really good in this area, this person’s really good in this area. I’m going to work with both of them, if time allows.

0:49:32 – Kimberly King

I like that. It helps you get to know yourself too doesn’t it?

0:49:35 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah, the world of work is still really relational, and so there’s so much value to having a really good mentor, not just in terms of your own personal growth, but also leveraging yourself in markets. You have a good mentor who you’ve built this relationship with, and their ability to just name drop for you, help guide you to this opportunity. It’s so true, like as recruiters and hiring managers are looking at resumes, having a name slide across their desk gives them a look, like it does. There is benefit there, and I tell people you know, having people in your corner when you’re, you know, in a market or looking to advance in an industry is such a value add- not just to what you can learn about yourself, but in terms of opportunity, not just to what you can learn about yourself, but in terms of opportunity.

0:50:22 – Kimberly King

Absolutely 100%. I love it. I feel so much more invigorated by speaking with both of you and charged up. So, thank you, we appreciate you both joining us and if you want more information, you can visit National University’s website, nu.edu. And thank you again for your time. Both of you. Really appreciate this conversation.

0:50:35 – Ashley Forrest

Yeah, thank you.

0:50:36 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah, thank you same. Thank you so much.

0:50:37 – Kimberly King

You’ve been listening to the National University podcast. For updates on future or past guests, visit us at nu.edu. You can also follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.